My inclination is not simply to acquiesce to these changes but to attempt to marshal support both from the library community and faculty in Modern Greek Studies to reverse the changes.
George
-----------------------
George I. Paganelis
Curator, Tsakopoulos Hellenic Collection
University Library
California State University, Sacramento
2000 State University Drive East
Sacramento, CA 95819-6039
Ph: (916) 278-4361 * Fax: (916) 278-5917
paganelis(a)csus.edu
http://www.library.csus.edu/tsakopoulos
-----Original Message-----
From: cohsl-list-bounces(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu [mailto:cohsl-list-bounces@lists.fas.harvard.edu] On Behalf Of cohsl-list-request(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 15:42:58 -0500
From: "Oddo, Anthony" <anthony.oddo(a)yale.edu>
Subject: Re: [Cohsl-list] CoHSL-list Digest, Vol 57, Issue 1
To: listserv for the Consortium of Hellenic Studies Librarians
<cohsl-list(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu>
Cc: Gisela Kam <gkam(a)princeton.edu>
Message-ID:
<0858210CEA871D4698679C52A2EAB1D62675EADE2D(a)XVS2-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu>
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Hi Gisela....I don't want double entries since that would not be a solution to the problem but only a quick bandage....what I want is to come up with a workable solution we can all agree to or to get LC to back off from these changes...
-----Original Message-----
From: cohsl-list-bounces(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu [mailto:cohsl-list-bounces@lists.fas.harvard.edu] On Behalf Of Gisela Kam
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:50 AM
To: cohsl-list(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu
Subject: Re: [Cohsl-list] CoHSL-list Digest, Vol 57, Issue 1
Kale mera from Princeton! Thank you Rhea for the call to arms. I have
forwarded this communication to our Head of Cataloging and to my
colleague who also does Greek and invited comment. My initial reaction
to the news was if LC ignored us, we could ignore LC. In our work, we
certainly could by not implementing the change; however we do
participate in NACO and our bibliographic records become global. The
solution will lie in effecting a compromise, at the very least, if LC
overrules our reasoned protest by not recanting the policy. I agree with
Tony, we could simply do double entries on bib and authority records. I
believe researchers and patrons engaged in Greek scholarship are
already schooled in the variance of transliteration tables and searching
both forms, (with the "h" and without it), is done automatically on
their parts. For catalogers it means more work; for bibliographic
specialists, it would require education, but the parameters of the
change I think are simple enough, restricted as they are to classical
Greek and pre-1982 text. Double entries would be the solution; the
problems lie in the implementation and acceptance of such a proposal.
There is a great deal more to be considered with this forced change. I
think as a body, protest would be ignored. We have to figure out how a
collective can uniformly agree on a separate policy and enforce a
schism, if compromise is not possible. The deed is done, how do we make
it work for us? Eilikrina,
Gisela Kam
Mod. Grk. & Rom. Lgs. Cataloger
Princeton University
cohsl-list-request(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu wrote:
> Send CoHSL-list mailing list submissions to
> cohsl-list(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of CoHSL-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. New Modern Greek Transliteration tables! (Lesage, Rhea)
> 2. Re: New Modern Greek Transliteration tables! (Robert Rendall)
> 3. Re: New Modern Greek Transliteration tables! (Oddo, Anthony)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:38:45 -0500
> From: "Lesage, Rhea" <karabel(a)fas.harvard.edu>
> Subject: [Cohsl-list] New Modern Greek Transliteration tables!
> To: "cohsl-list(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu"
> <cohsl-list(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <6ED7F38750C04641817F7304031DCD59012ACA6D(a)FASXCH01.fasmail.priv>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1257"
>
> Colleagues:
> Now that the initial shock and disbelief that LC could have changed the transliteration tables without a word to this group or the general cataloging community-it is time for us to plan what to do about it. (I have heard that not even LC staff who catalog Greek were informed of the change!) The LC web site says simply: ?Two separate tables for ancient Greek and modern Greek replaced the single table for Greek in 2009.? It does not warn the reader that there has been a significant change in the modern Greek table.
> See website: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/roman.html
>
> The tables are called ALA-LC Romanization Tables, but I don?t think these changes were adopted by or approved by ALA. Does anyone know whether there was any discussion at ALA about this?
>
> How does this group want to proceed? Are your institutions going to adopt the new table? If yes, then how are you going to deal with the authority file and the nonfiling characters in the masculine and feminine singular and plural articles going forward? Even if we were to embark on an expensive retrospective conversion project, it will be of no use, since the new table separates out the polytonic and monotonic orthography. The file will be permanently split.
>
> How are we going to educate our public services staff so that they can help patrons in searching? It would appear that users will have to do a double search in order to be sure they are covering all the possibilities. So, for example, I want to find the book by the Hetaireia Hell?nikou Logotechnikou kai Historikou Archeiou, entitled H? vivlioth?k? tou ELIA. The patron will need to search twice since they will have no idea whether the piece is written in polytonic or monotonic Greek! So the author search would have to be both Hetaireia Hell?nikou Logotechnikou kai Historikou Archeiou and Etaireia Ellenikou Logotechnikou kai Istorikou Archeiou.
>
> I mentioned the public services and patrons, but also we must consider the impact of this change on our acquisitions, cataloging and database management staff: double searching, training/explaining the differences between the monotonic and polytonic, changing several thousand authority records and their bibliographic counterparts. LC has not only changed the tables without any public announcement, they have provided absolutely no guidance as to how we are supposed to implement the change.
>
> I would appreciate feedback from your respective institutions and then ideas as to how we should, as the Consortium of Hellenic Studies Librarians, proceed. Shall we write a strong letter of discontent, as we did the last time? We stopped the implementation then, but this is after the fact, so I am not sure what good it will do.
>
> I suppose we have an option to refuse to adhere to the change, citing that 1. there was no process and absolutely no communication with the cataloging community. 2. This change is disruptive, confusing and will be expensive to implement, with absolutely no added value to our users.
>
> Please use this list to discuss-I would appreciate feedback!
> All best,
> Rhea
>
>
>
>
>
> Rhea K. Lesage
> Head and Bibliographer for Modern Greek
> Modern Greek Section
> Collection Development
> Widener Library Room G60
> Harvard College Library
> Cambridge, MA 02138
> USA
> (office) 617.495.3632
> (facsimile) 617.496.8704
>
>
Kale mera from Princeton! Thank you Rhea for the call to arms. I have
forwarded this communication to our Head of Cataloging and to my
colleague who also does Greek and invited comment. My initial reaction
to the news was if LC ignored us, we could ignore LC. In our work, we
certainly could by not implementing the change; however we do
participate in NACO and our bibliographic records become global. The
solution will lie in effecting a compromise, at the very least, if LC
overrules our reasoned protest by not recanting the policy. I agree with
Tony, we could simply do double entries on bib and authority records. I
believe researchers and patrons engaged in Greek scholarship are
already schooled in the variance of transliteration tables and searching
both forms, (with the "h" and without it), is done automatically on
their parts. For catalogers it means more work; for bibliographic
specialists, it would require education, but the parameters of the
change I think are simple enough, restricted as they are to classical
Greek and pre-1982 text. Double entries would be the solution; the
problems lie in the implementation and acceptance of such a proposal.
There is a great deal more to be considered with this forced change. I
think as a body, protest would be ignored. We have to figure out how a
collective can uniformly agree on a separate policy and enforce a
schism, if compromise is not possible. The deed is done, how do we make
it work for us? Eilikrina,
Gisela Kam
Mod. Grk. & Rom. Lgs. Cataloger
Princeton University
cohsl-list-request(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu wrote:
> Send CoHSL-list mailing list submissions to
> cohsl-list(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.fas.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/cohsl-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> cohsl-list-request(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> cohsl-list-owner(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of CoHSL-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. New Modern Greek Transliteration tables! (Lesage, Rhea)
> 2. Re: New Modern Greek Transliteration tables! (Robert Rendall)
> 3. Re: New Modern Greek Transliteration tables! (Oddo, Anthony)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:38:45 -0500
> From: "Lesage, Rhea" <karabel(a)fas.harvard.edu>
> Subject: [Cohsl-list] New Modern Greek Transliteration tables!
> To: "cohsl-list(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu"
> <cohsl-list(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <6ED7F38750C04641817F7304031DCD59012ACA6D(a)FASXCH01.fasmail.priv>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1257"
>
> Colleagues:
> Now that the initial shock and disbelief that LC could have changed the transliteration tables without a word to this group or the general cataloging community-it is time for us to plan what to do about it. (I have heard that not even LC staff who catalog Greek were informed of the change!) The LC web site says simply: ?Two separate tables for ancient Greek and modern Greek replaced the single table for Greek in 2009.? It does not warn the reader that there has been a significant change in the modern Greek table.
> See website: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/roman.html
>
> The tables are called ALA-LC Romanization Tables, but I don?t think these changes were adopted by or approved by ALA. Does anyone know whether there was any discussion at ALA about this?
>
> How does this group want to proceed? Are your institutions going to adopt the new table? If yes, then how are you going to deal with the authority file and the nonfiling characters in the masculine and feminine singular and plural articles going forward? Even if we were to embark on an expensive retrospective conversion project, it will be of no use, since the new table separates out the polytonic and monotonic orthography. The file will be permanently split.
>
> How are we going to educate our public services staff so that they can help patrons in searching? It would appear that users will have to do a double search in order to be sure they are covering all the possibilities. So, for example, I want to find the book by the Hetaireia Hell?nikou Logotechnikou kai Historikou Archeiou, entitled H? vivlioth?k? tou ELIA. The patron will need to search twice since they will have no idea whether the piece is written in polytonic or monotonic Greek! So the author search would have to be both Hetaireia Hell?nikou Logotechnikou kai Historikou Archeiou and Etaireia Ellenikou Logotechnikou kai Istorikou Archeiou.
>
> I mentioned the public services and patrons, but also we must consider the impact of this change on our acquisitions, cataloging and database management staff: double searching, training/explaining the differences between the monotonic and polytonic, changing several thousand authority records and their bibliographic counterparts. LC has not only changed the tables without any public announcement, they have provided absolutely no guidance as to how we are supposed to implement the change.
>
> I would appreciate feedback from your respective institutions and then ideas as to how we should, as the Consortium of Hellenic Studies Librarians, proceed. Shall we write a strong letter of discontent, as we did the last time? We stopped the implementation then, but this is after the fact, so I am not sure what good it will do.
>
> I suppose we have an option to refuse to adhere to the change, citing that 1. there was no process and absolutely no communication with the cataloging community. 2. This change is disruptive, confusing and will be expensive to implement, with absolutely no added value to our users.
>
> Please use this list to discuss-I would appreciate feedback!
> All best,
> Rhea
>
>
>
>
>
> Rhea K. Lesage
> Head and Bibliographer for Modern Greek
> Modern Greek Section
> Collection Development
> Widener Library Room G60
> Harvard College Library
> Cambridge, MA 02138
> USA
> (office) 617.495.3632
> (facsimile) 617.496.8704
>
>
Colleagues:
Now that the initial shock and disbelief that LC could have changed the transliteration tables without a word to this group or the general cataloging community-it is time for us to plan what to do about it. (I have heard that not even LC staff who catalog Greek were informed of the change!) The LC web site says simply: “Two separate tables for ancient Greek and modern Greek replaced the single table for Greek in 2009.” It does not warn the reader that there has been a significant change in the modern Greek table.
See website: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/roman.html
The tables are called ALA-LC Romanization Tables, but I don’t think these changes were adopted by or approved by ALA. Does anyone know whether there was any discussion at ALA about this?
How does this group want to proceed? Are your institutions going to adopt the new table? If yes, then how are you going to deal with the authority file and the nonfiling characters in the masculine and feminine singular and plural articles going forward? Even if we were to embark on an expensive retrospective conversion project, it will be of no use, since the new table separates out the polytonic and monotonic orthography. The file will be permanently split.
How are we going to educate our public services staff so that they can help patrons in searching? It would appear that users will have to do a double search in order to be sure they are covering all the possibilities. So, for example, I want to find the book by the Hetaireia Hellēnikou Logotechnikou kai Historikou Archeiou, entitled Hē vivliothēkē tou ELIA. The patron will need to search twice since they will have no idea whether the piece is written in polytonic or monotonic Greek! So the author search would have to be both Hetaireia Hellēnikou Logotechnikou kai Historikou Archeiou and Etaireia Ellenikou Logotechnikou kai Istorikou Archeiou.
I mentioned the public services and patrons, but also we must consider the impact of this change on our acquisitions, cataloging and database management staff: double searching, training/explaining the differences between the monotonic and polytonic, changing several thousand authority records and their bibliographic counterparts. LC has not only changed the tables without any public announcement, they have provided absolutely no guidance as to how we are supposed to implement the change.
I would appreciate feedback from your respective institutions and then ideas as to how we should, as the Consortium of Hellenic Studies Librarians, proceed. Shall we write a strong letter of discontent, as we did the last time? We stopped the implementation then, but this is after the fact, so I am not sure what good it will do.
I suppose we have an option to refuse to adhere to the change, citing that 1. there was no process and absolutely no communication with the cataloging community. 2. This change is disruptive, confusing and will be expensive to implement, with absolutely no added value to our users.
Please use this list to discuss-I would appreciate feedback!
All best,
Rhea
Rhea K. Lesage
Head and Bibliographer for Modern Greek
Modern Greek Section
Collection Development
Widener Library Room G60
Harvard College Library
Cambridge, MA 02138
USA
(office) 617.495.3632
(facsimile) 617.496.8704
