Hi, all,
I got an email from Robert Rendall which read thus:
My task force has submitted its report. It's basically making the same
recommendation as option #1 in the Princeton response on the CoHSL list:
stop using the "h" for all modern Greek (not just "monotonic orthography")
and try to convert old records. CC:DA will be voting on this over the next
few days.
FYI.
Karen
--
Karen Green
Ancient & Medieval History and Religion Librarian
Graphic Novels Librarian
Columbia University
New York NY 10027
212-854-3031
klg19(a)columbia.edu
Regarding Mr. Rendall's message:
Brilliant! Our body as a whole should be prepared with alternative
solutions given this second seismic attempt by LC to impose radical
change on Greek cataloging. Sooner or later, there may be change, better
we lead rather than be led.
Gisela Kam
Princeton University
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:33:42 -0400
> From: Karen Green <klg19(a)columbia.edu>
> Subject: [Cohsl-list] Rendall and the CC:DA report
> To: Hellenic Studies Librarians <cohsl-list(a)lists.fas.harvard.edu>
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>
> Hi, all,
>
> I got an email from Robert Rendall which read thus:
>
> My task force has submitted its report. It's basically making the same
> recommendation as option #1 in the Princeton response on the CoHSL list:
> stop using the "h" for all modern Greek (not just "monotonic orthography")
> and try to convert old records. CC:DA will be voting on this over the next
> few days.
>
> FYI.
>
> Karen
>
National Library of Scotland The National Library of Scotland has recently
completed a research project
exploring the role of national libraries in twenty years time i.e. 2030.
Focussing on small, technologically
developed countries, the report looks at changing customer behaviours,
publishing trends and future
developments in digital libraries. It includes a series of interviews with
leading library thinkers around
the world on the challenges and opportunities facing national libraries.
This project will inform the long-term strategy of NLS. As many of the
issues it covers are common to
other libraries, it is hoped that the report will be of wide interest. It's
available here<http://d.ss1.chennells.com/sendlink.asp?HitID=1269993976931&StID=5367&SID=6…>
http://www.nls.uk/about/policy/#thriving.
--
June Samaras
KALAMOS BOOKS
(For Books about Greece)
2020 Old Station Rd
Streetsville,Ontario
Canada L5M 2V1
Tel : 905-542-1877
E-mail : kalamosbooks(a)gmail.com
www.kalamosbooks.comhttp://kalamosb.alibrisstore.com/http://www.antiqbook.com/books/bookseller.phtml/kal
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Athanasios Velios <a.velios(a)gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 11:43 AM
Ligatus Summer School 2010
Herzog August Bibliothek, Wolfenbuttel (Germany)
2-6 and 9-13 August 2010.
The 5th Ligatus Summer School, following the success of the courses in
Volos, Patmos and Thessaloniki, is to be held this year in collaboration
with the Herzog August Bibliothek in Wolfenbüttel, near Braunschweig, in
northern Germany. This is an exciting new venture for us, and the
opportunity to use books from this magnificent collection in our
courses, will make this year’s summer school a memorable experience.
About the course:
The contribution that bindings can make to our understanding of the
history and culture of the book is often neglected, but they can offer
insights into the study of readership, the booktrade, and the provenance
of books which are often not available elsewhere. In order to realise
this potential, it is important to understand not only the history of
the craft but also to learn how to record what is seen in a consistent
and organised way. Librarians, cataloguers, conservators, book
historians and all scholars who work with early books, need therefore to
understand the structure and materials of the bindings they encounter in
order to be able to record and describe them. Such descriptions of
bindings are not only valuable for the management of library
collections, pursuing academic research and making informed decisions
about conservation, but are also important for digitisation projects as
they can radically enrich the potential of image and text metadata. It
is our belief that bindings should be seen as an integral part of the
book, without which, our understanding of the history and use of books
is often greatly circumscribed.
The purpose of the summer school is to uncover the possibilities latent
in the detailed study of bookbinding and it mainly focuses on books
which have been bound between the fifteenth and the early nineteenth
century. While both courses concentrate in particular on the structure
and materials of bookbindings, each of the two courses offered in this
summer school looks at bindings from different geographical areas and
with a different approach. The first course looks at the history of
bookbinding as it was carried out in Europe in the period of the hand
press (1450-1830), with the opportunity to look at examples from the
collection during the afternoons, while the second course looks at the
development of bookbinding in the eastern Mediterranean and gives
hands-on training in how to observe and record bindings, again working
with examples from the collection. Part of this course will include the
construction of an XML data structure (schema) for recording
bookbindings.
The courses are taught in English and each is open to 12 participants.
Although the courses can be attended individually, participants are
encouraged to attend both courses in order to get a more complete
understanding of the issues discussed, through the comparison of the
wide range of bookbindings considered in each week. Since these are not
beginner-level courses, the participants are expected to be familiar
with bookbinding terminology and have a basic knowledge of the history
of book production in the periods under discussion. A basic
understanding of the use of databases is also desirable for those who
will attend the course in the second week.
Description of courses:
Week 1, European Bookbinding 1450-1830
Tutor: Professor N. Pickwoad
This course will follow European bookbinding from the end of the Middle
Ages to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, using the bindings
themselves to illustrate the aims and intentions of the binding trade. A
large part of the course will be devoted to the identification of both
broad and detailed distinctions within the larger groups of plain
commercial bindings and the possibilities of identifying the work of
different countries, cities, even workshops without reference to
finishing tools. The identification and significance of the different
materials used in bookbinding will be examined, as well as the
classification of bookbindings by structural type, and how these types
developed through the three centuries covered by the course. The
development of binding decoration will be touched on, but will not form
a major part of the discussion.
The course consists of ten 90-minute sessions with slide-show
presentations (over 800 images will be shown). Actual examples of
bindings will be shown in the first four afternoon sessions while the
final afternoon will look at bookbinding terminology and offer the
opportunity for the discussion of questions and issues raised during the
week.
Week 2, Identifying and recording Byzantine bookbinding structures for
conservation and cataloguing.
Tutors: Dr. G. Boudalis and Dr. A. Velios
This five-day course will be divided in two interconnected sessions. The
first session, run by Dr. Georgios Boudalis, will focus upon the major
structural and decorative features of the Byzantine and post-Byzantine
bookbindings and their evolution in time and space. The relation of
these bindings with the early bindings of the Coptic and other Eastern
Mediterranean cultures will be discussed, during lectures, slide-shows
and hands-on sessions. This session will centre the influences and
comparisons of these different bookbindings. It will consist of eight
90-minute computer presentations supplemented by hands-on sessions.
The second session will be run by Dr. Athanasios Velios and will deal
with the data management and storage of bookbinding descriptions.
Alongside a brief reference to the relational databases this session
will mainly involve discussions on a) the semantic web and XML, b)
schemas and terminologies for bookbinding descriptions, c) commercial
and open source software options for XML data and d) methodologies and
workflows for collection surveys. A large part of this session will be
devoted to the actual development and use of an XML schema for recording
binding structures. This session will consist of two 90-minutes
presentations and eight 90-minutes hands-on workshops. Basic knowledge
of database use is desirable for this course.
The courses are supported by Ligatus and the University of the Arts,
London, with generous help from the Herzog August Bibliothek. We have
therefore been able to reduce the cost of the course for this year to
£320 per week, excluding travel, meals and accommodation.
A number of accommodation options will be provided to the participants.
A detailed schedule of the courses can be sent upon request.
Applications, including a short CV can be submitted online
(http://www.ligatus.org.uk/summerschool/). For information about
registration please email Ewelina Warner
(e.warner(a)camberwell.arts.ac.uk) and mark the message subject with:
'Ligatus Summer School'. A reading list will be sent to those who will
attend the courses in advance. Deadline for applications is the 11th of
June. The participants will be contacted by the end of June.
About the library:
Wolfenbüttel is a small town in Lower Saxony, Germany, located on the
Oker river about 13 kilometres south of Brunswick (Braunschweig), at the
edge of the Hartz Mountains. It became the residence of the dukes of
Brunswick in 1432 but the first known library in Wolfenbüttel was that
of the Duke Julius (1528-1529), the first protestant ruler of the duchy
of Brunswick-Lüneburg. This library was transferred in 1618, on the
orders of his grandson, Friedrich Ulrich (1591-1634), to the university
of Helmstedt, founded in 1576. The Herzog August Bibliothek in its
present form started its life as the private library of the Duke August
(1579-1666), and by the time of his death, the library was one of the
greatest collections in Europe, containing 135,000 painstakingly
catalogued printed books and 3000 manuscripts.
The library continued to grow under his immediate descendants in later
seventeenth and the eighteenth centuries, with both Gottfried Wilhelm
Liebnitz and Gotthold Ephraim Lessing serving as librarians, and was
then housed in a splendid circular building, finished in 1713, built by
the Duke Anton Ulrich, which was the first free-standing secular library
building in Europe. In 1810 the library of the University of Helmstedt
was returned to Wolfenbüttel, and other notable collections, both from
later generations of the ducal family and other aristocratic families,
were added to the Biblioteca Augusta, as the Duke August’s own
collection is known.
The current library building was opened in 1887, and new reading rooms,
exhibition spaces and other facilities have been added in nearby
buildings in more recent times. In 1983, the library was established as
an independent research centre by the State of Lower Saxony, with an
active programme which allows approximately 150 scholars to work in the
library each year and the addition of a large reference collection to
support the study of the early books. In addition, since that time there
has been an active programme of acquisitions of both printed books and
manuscripts of all ages, building on the strengths of the collection and
embarking in new directions. The library is now designated as the
national repository for printed books of the seventeenth century. It is
remarkable in having maintained its collection virtually intact since
the seventeenth century.
A good introduction to the library and its collections can be found in A
Treasure House of Books: the library of the Duke August of
Brunwick-Wolfenbüttel, Wolfenbüttel, 1998.
Ligatus is a research unit of the University of the Arts London with
particular interest in the history bookbinding, book conservation,
archiving and the application of digital technology to these fields.
Ligatus’s main research projects currently include the conservation of
the books in the library of St Catherine’s Monastery on Mount Sinai and
the development of a multi-lingual glossary of bookbinding terms.
--
June Samaras
KALAMOS BOOKS
(For Books about Greece)
2020 Old Station Rd
Streetsville,Ontario
Canada L5M 2V1
Tel : 905-542-1877
E-mail : kalamosbooks(a)gmail.com
www.kalamosbooks.comhttp://kalamosb.alibrisstore.com/http://www.antiqbook.com/books/bookseller.phtml/kal
June,
According to p. 80 of these proceedings (http://www.jewishmuseum.gr/UserFiles/File/PRAKTIKA/PRAKTIKA.pdf), the book by Stravolemos was self-published in Athens in 1988. See also pp. 19-20 for references to Zakynthos. Interestingly, no copy is registered in ARGO, EKT's union catalogue, though other publications by this author do appear. If you're looking to purchase a copy, contact me off-list and I can provide you with some leads in Athens and Zakynthos.
Another title on Jews in Zakynthos, though treating an earlier period, is: Hē Kerkyra kai hē Zakynthos ston kyklōna tou antisēmitismou: hē "sykophantia gia to haima" tou 1891 / Liata, Eutychia D. (OCLC #75636304).
This page has a brief summary and mentions a documentary film on the Jews of Zakynthos: http://www.kis.gr/index.php/2009-05-28-11-38-46/2009-06-03-07-42-00.html.
I hope this helps.
Best,
George
-----------------------
George I. Paganelis
Curator, Tsakopoulos Hellenic Collection
University Library
California State University, Sacramento
2000 State University Drive East
Sacramento, CA 95819-6039
Ph: (916) 278-4361 * Fax: (916) 278-5917
paganelis(a)csus.edu
http://www.library.csus.edu/tsakopoulos
Esteemed colleagues:
On Friday, March 19, the Princeton Greek cataloging team
(Gisela Kam, Jeff Luttrell and Yang Wang) met with the Director of
Cataloging and Metadata Services, Joyce Bell, and the Librarian for
Classics, Hellenic Studies and Linguistics, Dave Jenkins, in order to
discuss LC's proposal for Greek romanization. The outcome of this
meeting is as follows:
First and foremost, there was unanimous strong, in some cases vehement,
opposition to splitting Modern Greek into monotonic and polytonic
subsets with the resulting chaos in searching the catalog.
Second, three general approaches were discussed (in descending order of
slightly lesser preference):
1) Keep the status quo but remove the rough breathing from all post-1453
Modern Greek records. Our catalogers agreed that a machine conversion
of our catalog would be possible-in which bibliographic records in
Modern Greek would have the letter "h" stripped from words where it
preceded a vowel-and that the new practice would be relatively simple to
implement and result in better searching for users, many of whom are
unfamiliar with the whole issue of rough breathing signs. However, such
an approach would no longer reflect the fact that the rough breathing
does appear in polytonic texts, which are still being published in spite
of the official adoption of monotonic orthography in 1982.
2) Keep the status quo but, instead of removing the rough breathing from
post-1453 Modern Greek records, replace it with a new diacritic. In
other words, for polytonic works in Modern Greek, the appearance of the
rough breathing would be indicated in transliteration by a diacritic,
not a character, which would insure the same search results as those
from monotonic texts. This approach was also considered simple to
implement. However, it was understood that (in addition to a perhaps
problematic innovation) the retrospective replacement of the
transliterated "h" with this diacritic would result, at least initially,
in a subset of monotonic texts that now appear as polytonic.
3) Keep the status quo with no exceptions. The continuity of previous
Greek cataloging means something, as do the expectations that it has
created. Nevertheless, we understand that this status quo is becoming
increasingly untenable with a new generation of users.
We welcome comments! Submitted on behalf of the group by Jeff Luttrell.
[Dbworld] CFP: 9th Hellenic Data Management Symposium (HDMS'10), Ayia
Napa, Cyprus
http://dbworld.lukasblunschi.ch/blog/?p=8071
From: "Demetrios Zeinalipour-Yazti" (email address not shown)
-- C A L L F O R P A P E R S --
9th Hellenic Data Management Symposium (HDMS 2010)
June 30th - July 3rd 2010, Ayia Napa, Cyprus
http://www.cs.ucy.ac.cy/~hdms2010/
Paper submission deadline: April 15th, 2010
-------------------------
The Hellenic Data Management Symposium (HDMS) is the annual forum
for the Greek database community to present and discuss recent
advances in the data management field. After a successful series
of eight events held since 2002, the 9th symposium will be held
in Ayia Napa, on Wednesday June 30th to Saturday, July 3rd, 2010.
The program of HDMS 2010 will include research paper presentations,
tutorials, invited talks, demos and panels. The key criterion in
judging submissions is that of technical content. As such, papers
recently accepted for presentation in top international
conferences may be also submitted to HDMS and considered for
inclusion in the unofficial HDMS proceedings.
TOPICS OF INTEREST
==================
Topics of interest include (but are not limited to):
Core database technologies (query processing and optimization,
concurrency control, etc), as well as non-traditional data
management architectures (e.g., data stream management, P2P,
replication, and caching)
Data management applications (e.g., Web mashups, social networks,
scientific databases, sensor networks, etc.)
Models and languages for the management of data (e.g., XML,
probabilistic data models, meta-data management, multi-media, etc.)
Techniques to achieve performance and scalability in the management
of data (e.g., indexing, hardware accelerators, etc.)
Other aspects of modern information systems such as security,
privacy, personalization, user interfaces, etc.
The primary criterion for selecting submitted papers will be
technical depth, with second criterion novelty.
IMPORTANT DATES
===============
Paper submissions due, Proposals for panels
and tutorials: Thursday, April 15th, 2010
Notification of acceptance: Thursday, May 20th, 2010
Camera-ready due date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2010
Symposium dates: Wednesday, June 30th - Saturday, July 3rd, 2010
SUBMISSION INSTRUCTIONS
=======================
Research papers must be submitted electronically in PDF.
Please visit the HDMS'10 web site (http://www.cs.ucy.ac.cy/~hdms2010/)
to access the paper submission system. Novel papers should be
formatted according to the official ACM Proceedings format
(available at: http://www.acm.org/sigs/pubs/proceed/template.html)
and should not exceed twelve (12) pages. Papers already accepted
for presentation in top international conferences can be submitted
to HDMS in their original format.
To help the Greek community form a consistent corpus of
terminological terms, all accepted papers, must be accompanied by
(i) title, and (ii) abstract in GREEK. This information is not
required for the submission; still, corresponding authors of
accepted papers should provide the PC chair with these data.
Proposals for tutorials, panels and research prototype
demonstrations should either be in their original format
(if already accepted in major database conferences), or,
they should not exceed two (2) pages, including the
speakers, panelists, and the general concept of the
proposal.
ORGANIZATION
============
General Chair:
George Samaras, University of Cyprus, Cyprus
cssamara(a)cs.ucy.ac.cy, http://www.cs.ucy.ac.cy/~cssamara/
PC Chair:
Panos K. Chrysanthis, University of Pittsburgh, USA
panos(a)cs.pitt.edu, http://www.cs.pitt.edu/~panos/
Local Chair:
Demetris Zeinalipour, University of Cyprus, Cyprus
dzeina(a)cs.ucy.ac.cy, http://www.cs.ucy.ac.cy/~dzeina/
Web Chair:
Panayiotis Neophytou, University of Pittsburgh, ÇÐÁ
panickos(a)cs.pitt.edu, http://www.cs.pitt.edu/~USA/
PROGRAM COMMITTEE
=================
Anastasia Ailamaki, EPFL, Switzerland
Vassilis Christophides, University of Crete, Greece
Antonios Deligiannakis, Technical University of Crete, Greece
Alex Delis, University of Athens, Greece
Marios Dikaiakos, University of Cyprus, Cyprus
George Fakas, Manchester Metropolita University, UK
Christos Faloutsos, Carnegie Mellon University, USA
Irini Fundulaki, ICS-FORTH, Greece
Marios Hadjieleftheriou, AT&T Shannon Labs, USA
Stavros Harizopoulos, HP Labs, USA
Michael Hatzopoulos, University of Athens, Greece
Vagelis Hristidis, Florida International University, USA
Yannis Ioannidis, University of Athens, Greece
Panos Kalnis, KAUST, Saudi Arabia
Vana Kalogeraki, AUEB, Greece
George Kollios, Boston University, USA
Yannis Kotidis, AUEB, Greece
Manolis Koubarakis, University of Athens, Greece
Nick Koudas, University of Toronto, Canada
Georgia Koutrika, IBM Almaden Research Center, USA
Alexandros Labrinidis, University of Pittsburgh, USA
Nikos Mamoulis, University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong
Yannis Manolopoulos, Aristotle University, Greece
Kyriakos Mouratidis, Singapore Management University, Singapore
Themis Palpanas, University of Trento, Italy
Dimitris Papadias, HKUST, Hong Kong
Olga Papaemmanouil, Brandeis University, USA
Michalis Petropoulos, SUNY Buffalo, USA
Evaggelia Pitoura, University of Ioannina, Greece
Alkis Polyzotis, UC Santa Cruz, USA
Nick Rousopoulos, UMIACS, USA
Yannis Theodoridis, University of Piraeus, Greece
Peter Triantafillou, University of Patras, Greece
Vassilis Tsotras, UC Riverside, USA
Zografoula Vagena, University of Southern Denmark, Denmark
Vasilis Vassalos, AUEB, Greece
Panos Vassiliadis, University of Ioannina, Greece
Yannis Velegrakis, University of Trento, Italy
Stratis Viglas, University of Edinburgh, UK
Demetris Zeinalipour, University of Cyprus, Cyprus
DBHELLAS
========
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--
June Samaras
KALAMOS BOOKS
(For Books about Greece)
2020 Old Station Rd
Streetsville,Ontario
Canada L5M 2V1
Tel : 905-542-1877
E-mail : kalamosbooks(a)gmail.com
www.kalamosbooks.comhttp://kalamosb.alibrisstore.com/http://www.antiqbook.com/books/bookseller.phtml/kal
I have been asked to find information on the Jewish community of Zakynthos
and was give a reference to this "English" author/title :
Dionyssios Stravolemos, An Act of Heroism - A Justification,
However the only citation I can find is this one in WordCat
Henas hēroismos, mia dikaiōsē : hē diasōsē tōn Hevraiōn tēs
Zakynthou stē Katochē : symplērōma tēs prosphoras synchronōn
historikōn gegonotōn tēs Zakynthou ston 20. aiōna pou aperchetai
by Dionysios Ch Stravolemos( Book )
But which does not identify the publisher , neither does the LOC link
to Open library
http://openlibrary.org/b/OL409973M/Henas_he%CC%84roismos_mia_dikaio%CC%84se…
the l=
Does anyone out there have any further information about this author,
the book or the publisher ?
Thank You / Evcharisto
===========================-
June Samaras
KALAMOS BOOKS
(For Books about Greece)
2020 Old Station Rd
Streetsville,Ontario
Canada L5M 2V1
Tel : 905-542-1877
E-mail : kalamosbooks(a)gmail.com
www.kalamosbooks.comhttp://kalamosb.alibrisstore.com/http://www.antiqbook.com/books/bookseller.phtml/kal
Dear Colleagues:
I am forwarding the clarification response that I received from Bob Hiatt this morning, which indicates that LC's intention is indeed to split the file according to whether an item is written in polytonic or monotonic Greek. He provides 2 examples that I think give all the basis we need to argue for absolute rejection of the new tables!
Rhea
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Miller Hiatt [mailto:rhia@loc.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:04 AM
To: Lesage, Rhea
Cc: Barbara B Tillett
Subject: Re: FW: FW: Greek transliteration
Rhea:
The intent is that if the rough breathing sign is present in the
script, it gets romanized as "h." This would apply to polytonic Greek
whenever the resource was published. The note simply provides guidance
when one cannot ascertain from the resource whether it is monotonic or
polytonic. Since the reform took place in 1982, that date is used as the
dividing line to help make a decision. As for an example, check out n
81003348 (Ērakleion (Greece). It is currently written Ηράκλειον
without the rough breathing mark. Therefore the heading was revised to
Ērakleion (Greece) with reference from the form that used the rough
breathing mark: Hērakleion (Greece). This same treatment applies also
to the Nome of Ērakleion--n 97069944 (Ērakleion (Greece : Nome)). On
the other side of the coin, look at n 97052790 (Dēmotikē Pinakothēkē
Hērakleiou) which retains the romanization for the rough breathing mark
because the usage in this 1994 resource is clearly noted as polytonic.
On this particular record, only the reference from the place has been
revised to reflect the revised heading for the place. I hope this
provides what you needed.
Bob Hiatt
Policy and Standards Division
Robert M. Hiatt
Senior Cataloging Policy Specialist
Policy and Standards Division
Library of Congress
Washington, D.C. 20540-4305
Voice: (202) 707-5831
Email: rhia(a)loc.gov
Fax: (202) 707-6629
>>> "Lesage, Rhea" <karabel(a)fas.harvard.edu> 3/23/2010 3:50 PM >>>
Bob:
In order for Harvard to send a response to the proposed tables we would
like to have answers to the questions below.
Thank you,
Rhea
-----Original Message-----
From: Lesage, Rhea
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:49 PM
To: 'Robert Miller Hiatt'
Cc: 'Barbara B Tillett'; Lesage, Rhea
Subject: RE: FW: Greek transliteration
Bob:
Thank you for your email and sending the LC statement to the various
lists. The deadline is tight but I am certain you will hear from the
constituency.
According to the statement: “The only change to the previous table
(other than the separation of ancient and medieval Greek from modern
Greek) was the full adoption of monotonic Greek as promulgated in 1982,
thus eliminating the former practice of romanizing a rough breathing
sign whether present or not in the script. Elimination of this practice
meant there would be an impact on headings. The division envisioned that
headings would be revised as necessary on the first occurrence of
cataloging a resource in monotonic Greek. As is the policy (AACR2, 24.2C
and LCRI 24.2C), headings romanized from languages having undergone
orthographic reform are revised to reflect the new orthography with
reference from the form in the old orthography.”
The revised table "Notes" on the LC website seem to contradict this
statement: "If it is not evident whether the text to be romanized is in
polytonic or monotonic orthography, examine the rest of the item. If
that provides no information, consider an item issued before 1982 to be
in polytonic, and an item issued in 1982 or later to be in monotonic."
--The way I understand this is that we should add the h if the item is
written in polytonic Greek. Is this correct?
With this in mind, the statement that we can revise headings as
necessary on the first occurrence of cataloging in monotonic is
confusing. What do you mean by this? It would be helpful for us to have
concrete examples to understand what kind of work this will take going
forward if the new table were to be adopted.
Sincerely,
Rhea
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Miller Hiatt [mailto:rhia@loc.gov]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 9:47 AM
To: Lesage, Rhea
Subject: Re: FW: Greek transliteration
Rhea:
This message has caused quite a stir here and has resulted in a
statement from the Library which is being posted on several lists,
including CoHSL. I'm attaching the statement in a Word file.
Bob Hiatt
Policy and Standards Division
Robert M. Hiatt
Senior Cataloging Policy Specialist
Policy and Standards Division
Library of Congress
Washington, D.C. 20540-4305
Voice: (202) 707-5831
Email: rhia(a)loc.gov
Fax: (202) 707-6629
>>> "Lesage, Rhea" <karabel(a)fas.harvard.edu> 3/4/2010 3:29 PM >>>
Dear Bob:
Robert Randell (Columbia), representing the PCC Task Force on Non-Latin
Script Cataloging Documentation, recently contacted the Consortium for
Hellenic Studies Librarians (CoHSL) listserv asking for input about the
use of diacritics in the vernacular. He followed up with a draft for the
documentation they will use, with examples. He referred to the 2009
revision of the modern Greek tables, and his examples eliminated the
initial “h” for the rough breathing.
We (the membership of the CoHSL) were caught completely by surprise.
(Even LC employees who handle Greek were unaware of a change.) Randell
explained that he was told that the change was proposed in the 2009
summer issue of the Cataloging Services Bulletin with a call for
comments by December 1, 2009. Unfortunately, this announcement did not
reach those of us who deal with modern Greek. The new table separates
the polytonic and monotonic orthography and advises catalogers to add
the “h” for rough breathing in the polytonic and drop it in the
monotonic, but to include it if it was published prior to 1982. This is
confusing even to the most fluent of Greek speakers. If I understand
the new table correctly, this means that the files will be permanently
split. So even if there were funding (and realistically, there is not)
for a retrospective conversion project, it would be of no value. With
the new tables, public services staff will have to educate the users to,
at minimum, double search in order to be sure they are covering all the
possibilities. For example, a patron is looking for a book by the
(H)etaireia (H)ellēnikou Logotechnikou kai (H)istorikou Archeiou,
entitled (H)istoria tes (H)ellados. He or she would need to search the
author and title minimally twice, but actually would need to search
additional combinations with and without the H’s depending on whether
the “Hetaireia” was established before or after 1982, and then,
whether the book was written using the polytonic or monotonic
orthography.
This change will have an impact on our acquisitions, cataloging and
database management staff at a time when they are already stretched:
double and triple searching, training, understanding and then
explaining the differences between the monotonic and polytonic
orthography, and finally, if this is the plan-changing several thousand
authority records and their bibliographic counterparts. With regard to
authority work, has LC run reports for the number of corporate bodies
that have the words Hetaireia and/or Hellēnike? What is LC’s plan for
the authority file? What kind of guidance will you provide for the
library community as they try to cope with this change?
Changing the rough breathing mark rule constitutes a major change to
cataloging modern Greek. Since we have not received an official
announcement from LC regarding the date that the change will take
effect, does this mean the matter still open? I am forwarding below the
message that I sent in December 2008 when I was contacted about possible
changes to the tables. As I mention below, our goal should be to
simplify rather than complicate. In 2004 and again in 2008, I offered
both you and Barbara Tillett my assistance in taking a leadership role
in working with the rest of the community to effect changes to the
tables. Once again, I would like to proffer you my help in making
changes that would make sense, be cost effective, and most importantly,
help the users of our systems. The change as it stands now, and how
most of us are reading it, is disruptive, confusing and will be
expensive to implement--with absolutely no added value to our users. I
look forward to your reply.
Sincerely,
Rhea
Rhea K. Lesage
Head and Bibliographer for Modern Greek
Modern Greek Section
Collection Development
Widener Library Room G60
Harvard College Library
Cambridge, MA 02138
USA
(office) 617.495.3632
(facsimile) 617.496.8704
From: Rhea Karabelas Lesage [mailto:karabel@fas.harvard.edu]
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 6:04 PM
To: Robert Miller Hiatt
Cc: Rhea Karabelas Lesage
Subject: Greek transliteration
Hi, Bob:
Thank you for getting in touch about changes to the Greek tables, and
for returning my call to discuss this over the phone. I wanted to give
you my feedback and suggestions as a follow-up.
First of all, we agree that respecting the "h" for the rough breathing
mark that is no longer there, no longer seems to make sense and
continues to be an out-dated practice. This system, however archaic as
it may seem, is something we all seem to manage--there is a finite group
of words that require the rough breathing. If it would help we could
compile a list as an addendum to the existing tables. It should also be
noted that there are still many modern Greek authors who intentionally
write using polytonic Greek (which includes the rough breathing).
Whatever decision is made we need to allow for this practice and
prescribe how catalogers should handle it.
My feedback on proposed tables:
* I think teasing out the Ancient and Medieval tables is
appropriate, as well as giving Coptic its own table.
* The proposed table for Modern Greek (after 1453) appears to be
taken from the ISO 843 1997 TR (transcription) and not from the ISO 843
TL (transliteration) table with a couple of exceptions: the I with a
macron over it to represent eta and the O with the macron over it to
represent omega. While the transcription table does an excellent job
representing Greek as it sounds, it would require that the cataloger not
just have a basic knowledge of modern Greek, but rather would require a
high level of proficiency in the language. Even I, a proficient Greek
speaker would need to constantly refer to the tables as I catalog. Of
all our peer institutions, my cataloger is the only native Greek
speaker. Our goal should be to simplify rather than to complicate. I
think we should be thinking more in terms of how to take the existing
tables, and work with the person whom I recommended at the University of
Crete, Yannis Kosmas, who is confident that he could write a program
that would respect the tables as they are now, and could do automated
conversion to the roman script from the Greek. Most ILSs are now able to
handle the various scripts and are actually cataloging in the
vernacular. We are accepting copy but not doing original for the mere
fact that the parallel fields will take more time that we cannot spare.
If we could import Greek records and then press a button to create
parallel transliterated fields this would be ideal.
* Absent this possibility, and only if there is *truly* a need to
change the table, I would suggest that we open the discussion up to the
cataloging and modern Greek studies communities, and determine whether
it makes sense to use the ISO 843 1997 TL table (not the TR). This will
provide a letter to letter correspondence, for ease of automated
reversal, but does not represent how the language sounds. I am not sure
how the community would react to this proposal, but my guess is that
they may support it if it complies to international standards. For the
comparison of the ISO 843 TR and TL tables, I refer you to to Thomas
T.
Pedersen's transliteration web site, and specifically to his Greek
tables where he compares various schemes:
http://transliteration.eki.ee/pdf/Greek.pdf
I hope this summarizes what we discussed and please let me know if you
have any questions or if we need further discussion.
Best wishes,
Rhea
Rhea K. Lesage
Head and Bibliographer for Modern Greek
Modern Greek Section
Collection Development Department
Widener Library
Harvard College Library
Cambridge, MA 02138
(617)495-3632
FAX (617)496-8704
Dear Colleagues,
I have been advised that a task force has been created to review the proposed Romanization tables for Ancient and Modern Greek. Our own Tony Oddo has been appointed to serve as well as new CoHSL list members David Jenkins and Robert Rendall. Below is the message I sent to them yesterday, and I am sharing with this list so that we can get as much information as possible out there to get the conversation going.
Thanks to Jeff Luttrell for sharing as well. Time is running out—we need to get our talking points in order so that our respective institutions can respond by the March 31st deadline.
Rhea
From: Lesage, Rhea
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 3:42 PM
To: Robert Rendall; Oddo, Anthony
Cc: David T. Jenkins; Helen F. Schmierer; Robert Maxwell; Johnston, George (johnstg); Lesage, Rhea
Subject: RE: Greek Romanization
Dear members of the CC:DA Task Force for the Review of the Proposed Romanization Tables (2009) for Ancient and Modern Greek:
Tony Oddo has advised me that your group has been formed to assess the proposed changes to the tables. I would like to address Robert Rendall’s assertion that LC’s plans are to omit the h for items cataloged after 2009. My reading of the proposed table and the LC message that Hiatt sent do not say this, but rather that a retrospective conversion project will be in order, the likes of Wade-Giles/Pinyin (but on a smaller scale). I understand (and previous conversations with Hiatt confirmed) that all items published and cataloged after 1982 would have to be changed to reflect the “new” orthography.
According to LC’s statement “Elimination of this practice meant there would be an impact on headings. The division envisioned that headings would be revised as necessary on the first occurrence of cataloging a resource in monotonic Greek. As is the policy (AACR2, 24.2C and LCRI 24.2C), headings romanized from languages having undergone orthographic reform are revised to reflect the new orthography with reference from the form in the old orthography.”
I have asked LC for numbers so that we can get a handle on what kind of project is involved. Even if Robert is correct that LC intends to implement the change to items cataloged after 2009 how will this change be implemented? Those of you who are familiar with the language must certainly understand that dropping the “ h” for the rough breathing will mean changing every authority and bibliographic record that contains Hetaireia, Hidryma, Hellada, Historia (all forms), Hellenike (all forms), Hygeia, Hyprourgeio, Hiera, to name just a few examples. We are looking at a retrospective conversion project at a time when no one has the resources to do so.
The addition of the “h” for rough breathing is indeed an outdated practice and LC obviously wants to correct their error that they never implemented the change in 1982. I would be willing to support this change (dropping the h for rough breathing) if it can be done in a planned and coordinated manner, certainly not in the way LC is suggesting, one record at a time! LC has not responded to my request for numbers or their plans for implementation.
Please feel free to join the CoHSL listserv for further information on this topic: http://lists.fas.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/cohsl-list , or to contact me with any questions.
Rhea K. Lesage
Rhea K. Lesage
Head and Bibliographer for Modern Greek
Modern Greek Section
Collection Development
Widener Library Room G60
Harvard College Library
Cambridge, MA 02138
USA
(office) 617.495.3632
(facsimile) 617.496.8704
*******************************************************************************************************************************************************
This is CoHSL's response to LC's proposed tables, not to the ideas we've been talking about. Under LC's plans the h would only be omitted in bibliographic records for Modern Greek titles in monotonic orthography cataloged after 2009, and existing authority records would be revised one by one as they came up in new cataloging only. Modern Greek files would be permanently split with some romanized records including the h and others omitting it.
I don't think anyone outside LC thinks that is acceptable - we didn't even include it as one of our three "options." We've been talking mostly about option #1, where we would essentially abolish the h and try to retroactively remove it from all existing Modern Greek (language code gre) bib. records and from the corresponding authority records. Ancient Greek records (language code grc), including modern editions of ancient and Byzantine texts, would not be affected.
This is a very different model and I think it would need a new response from CoHSL.
Robert.
From: Robert Rendall [mailto:rr2205@columbia.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 11:51 AM
To: Oddo, Anthony
Cc: David T. Jenkins; Helen F. Schmierer; Robert Maxwell; Johnston, George (johnstg); Lesage, Rhea
Subject: Re: Greek Romanization
I'm not sure there are any practical options substantially different from these three (I don't think romanizing titles in Modern Greek describing or related to the ancient period using the Ancient Greek scheme would be a practical option), but more input can't hurt.
Robert.
Oddo, Anthony wrote:
I agree partially with David…this was my original concern…are these the only three options? …I said yesterday that I supported #1 more or less but I was thinking about this last night and I would like to hear from others on the Hellenic Studies list so I have passed the options to the Consortium for Hellenic Studies Librarians’ list moderator to hopefully get some comments back from the membership…I will speak with her later today….I am sorry to say but I think it is a bit premature to write a report…..comments, Tony
From: David T. Jenkins [mailto:dj3@Princeton.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 10:08 AM
To: Robert Rendall
Cc: Oddo, Anthony; Helen F. Schmierer; Robert Maxwell; Johnston, George (johnstg)
Subject: RE: Greek Romanization
Maybe option #1 isn’t as clear as I thought. The way I’m understanding it, Robert’s example, “Anagnōstikon tēs archaias Hellēnikēs historias,” (assuming it was published after 1453) would be transliterated in option #1 as “Anagnōstikon tēs archaias Ellēnikēs istorias.” It’s not clear to me why any word from a post-1453 imprint describing or related to the ancient period would be transliterated using the pre-1453 scheme. In the same sense, the title “Peri tinōn Homērikōn epithetōn eis Apollō anēkontōn,” published in 1930, would be transliterated as “Peri tinōn Omērikōn epithetōn eis Apollō anēkontōn,” even though Homer is an ancient author. The English authority heading “Homer” would remain, but the transcription from the title would follow the post-1453 scheme. Nevertheless, the strangeness of seeing “Ellēnikēs istorias” did cause our catalogers to pause and in their minds kept option #3 (keep the status quo with no exceptions) on the table.
Dave
----------------------
David Jenkins
Librarian for Classics, Hellenic Studies and Linguistics
Princeton University
B-17P-1 Firestone Library
One Washington Road
Princeton, NJ 08544-2098
Tel: 609-258-5811
Fax: 609-258-6950
Email: dj3(a)princeton.edu<mailto:dj3@princeton.edu>
From: Robert Rendall [mailto:rr2205@columbia.edu]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 4:21 PM
To: David T. Jenkins
Cc: Oddo, Anthony; Helen F. Schmierer; Robert Maxwell; Johnston, George (johnstg)
Subject: Re: Greek Romanization
And hopefully we can avoid converting
Anagnōstikon tēs archaias Hellēnikēs historias = A reader of ancient Greek history
to
Anagnōstikon tēs archaias Ellēnikēs istorias = A reader of ancient Greek istory
Robert.
David T. Jenkins wrote:
Right, “retrospective conversion would be possible” is a little vague, isn’t it. I think the feeling on the part of our catalogers was that a retrospective conversion along these lines (globally removing only the transliterated “h” in post-1453 Modern Greek records) was a relatively discreet and well-defined command given the single language, single date and single character, which only occurs in Greek in the initial position as a rough breathing. I’m sure there would be complications, but I’d say that was the initial first impression.
As for sharing these possible approaches with the Consortium, I would certainly have no problem with that and in fact would encourage it. Let’s hope there are even better ideas out there!
Dave
----------------------
David Jenkins
Librarian for Classics, Hellenic Studies and Linguistics
Princeton University
B-17P-1 Firestone Library
One Washington Road
Princeton, NJ 08544-2098
Tel: 609-258-5811
Fax: 609-258-6950
Email: dj3(a)princeton.edu<mailto:dj3@princeton.edu>
From: Oddo, Anthony [mailto:anthony.oddo@yale.edu]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 3:26 PM
To: Helen F. Schmierer; David T. Jenkins; Robert Maxwell; Robert Rendall
Cc: Johnston, George (johnstg); Oddo, Anthony
Subject: RE: Greek Romanization
Hello:
I vote “more or less” for #1… however are these the only options available? You are correct when you say the Consortium for Hellenic Studies Librarians has not discussed this ...I am the assistant chair and the whole problem is a hot topic on our list….I would like to ask the members of the consortium their feelings for the three presented….would that be appropriate???? Comments, etc!!!
I have a question: what is the meaning of the phrase in #1 “ retrospective conversion would be possible”
Tony
From: Helen F. Schmierer [mailto:hfs@uic.edu]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:13 PM
To: David T. Jenkins; Robert Maxwell; Robert Rendall
Cc: Johnston, George (johnstg); Oddo, Anthony
Subject: RE: Greek Romanization
Thank you for this input...
Task force, let's have a straw vote on these approaches, taking ONLY one of them. Do you want, #1, #2 or #3...and if you have reasons why, let us know!
At 12:02 PM 3/22/2010, David T. Jenkins wrote:
FYI – some anecdotal but perhaps helpful feedback. On Friday I met with Princeton’s Greek cataloging team (Gisela Kam, Jeff Luttrell and Yang Wang) and the Director of our Cataloging and Metadata Services, Joyce Bell, in order to discuss LC’s proposal for Greek Romanization.
First and foremost, there was strong, in some cases vehement, opposition to splitting Modern Greek into mono and polytonic subsets (for all the same reasons that we have discussed).
Second, they expressed openness to three general approaches (in descending order of slightly lesser preference):
1) Keep the status quo but remove the rough breathing from all post-1453 Modern Greek records. The members of our Greek cataloging team are all active contributors to the Consortium for Hellenic Studies Librarians and mentioned that the Consortium has not yet discussed this approach, which appears to be the emerging consensus of our own Task Force. “ rough breathing does appear in polytonic texts, which are still being published in spite of the official adoption of monotonic orthography in 1982.
2) Keep the status quo but, instead of removing the rough breathing from post-1453 Modern Greek records, replace it with a new diacritic. In other words, for polytonic works in Modern Greek, the appearance of the rough breathing would be indicated in transliteration by a diacritic, not a character, which would insure the same search results as those from monotonic texts. This approach was also considered simple to implement. However, it was understood that (in addition to a perhaps problematic innovation) the retrospective replacement of the transliterated “h” with this diacritic would result, at least initially, in a subset of monotonic texts that now appear as polytonic.
3) Keep the status quo with no exceptions. The continuity of previous Greek cataloging means something, as do the expectations that it has created. Nevertheless, they understood that this status quo is becoming increasingly untenable with a new generation of users.
----------------------
David Jenkins
Librarian for Classics, Hellenic Studies and Linguistics
Princeton University
B-17P-1 Firestone Library
One Washington Road
Princeton, NJ 08544-2098
Tel: 609-258-5811
Fax: 609-258-6950
Email: dj3(a)princeton.edu<mailto:dj3@princeton.edu>
